Yet more new SCALE users needing help

[Arwen]

Over the last few weeks, (months?), I have seen many new TrueNAS SCALE users with low forum post counts, (or even on their first), needing help. Now many of them seem to understand TrueNAS SCALE is not a Linux distro. So a previous comment of mine elsewhere on "What is and isn't TrueNAS" is not relevant most of the time.

It would be interesting to see the number of SCALE downloads verses Core downloads. And potentially the upgrade counts.


SCALE seems to have brought in a great many users, quite a few because of the applications side. (Where as Core's available jail apps and plugins were much less than ones available with SCALE.) Of course, we still had / have a few SCALE users that expected every single feature to be both completed and bug free.


Anyone else notice the "flood" of new SCALE users that are asking for help?

Do you think it is good to have a ton of new SCALE users, even if they have to ask for help?

 

[mistermanko]

Do you think it is good to have a ton of new SCALE users, even if they have to ask for help?

I mean what can you do? There is already the Truecharts account annoyingly replying to every SCALE thread that the question should be asked on their Discord, yet every new User will of course seek for help in the official Forum.
The Apps approach taken on SCALE is almost asking for inexperienced and/or Linux-unaware people flooding into your ecosystem.

 

[danb35]

There is already the Truecharts account annoyingly replying to every SCALE thread that the question should be asked on their Discord

But really, what are the options here?

• Mandate (how?) that third-party app providers support their stuff here?
• They just stay out of threads where their apps are being discussed?
• Or they do what they do now, pointing people who have questions about their stuff to their support channel.

Given that they've chosen to set up their own support channels, I think what they do is the least-bad choice. I'd rather they did differently; I don't like Discord and its chat-room nature for a support channel (though I should mention that the couple of times I've sought help there, I got it very quickly). But it is (and IMO ought to be) their choice where and how to support their work.

The Apps approach taken on SCALE is almost asking for inexperienced and/or Linux-unaware people flooding into your ecosystem.

But is this fundamentally different from CORE?

 

[Arwen]

Hmm, perhaps we need a "Welcome to TrueNAS SCALE - Beginners Guide" and suggest that new users of SCALE read it. Since it's a "suggestion", they are free to ignore it, (like some people will do). But, maybe some will read it.

In that guide for questions on TrueChart, we can point forum users to their Discord.

So, can we collect enough information for a "Welcome to TrueNAS SCALE - Beginners Guide"?


Here are the items to cover, as I can think of them now:

• TrueNAS SCALE is based on Linux, while TrueNAS Core uses FreeBSD, and use different user land packages
• Both SCALE & Core only use ZFS for data storage. If you are looking for something disk compatible with MS-Windows, look elsewhere. (But network accessible from MS-Windows is a fully supported feature.)
• SCALE is not a Linux distro, so installing random packages on the base OS will likely lead to frustration after they disappear during an update
• Questions for TrueChart should go to their Discord channel
• SCALE is still under development, so some features may not be complete or fully functional
• With SCALE based on Linux, the ZFS ARC will act differently than on Core, (which is based on FreeBSD).
• Just because SCALE is based on Linux, random / recycled / old hardware may not work faster or more reliable than Core. A good NAS server will want to be reliable & protect your data, which random, recycled or old hardware may not do.

Any additions?

 

[ChrisRJ]

Any additions?

A few quick thoughts:

• ZFS basics incl. pool/vdev design
• YouTube entertainment vs. running a production system (usually mission-critical)
• Why are you going to TrueNAS/ZFS? Requirements or just saw a YouTube video and jump on it?
• Performance basics
• Understand your own requirements

 

[Arwen]

@ChrisRJ - Good points, we can link to other guides & Resources as needed. They can skim the original guide, and pick a forum Resource on the specific features, like pool design.

 

[Whattteva]

It would be interesting to see the number of SCALE downloads verses Core downloads. And potentially the upgrade counts.

I think this is the biggest issue and I would even count this statement as one. Many users tend to think that CORE -> SCALE migration = "upgrade".
If anything, I think of it as a downgrade for a number of reasons:

1. Nowhere near as battle-tested as CORE for mission-critical use.
2. ZFS performance isn't as good due to Linux caching difference (50% by default vs 99%).
3. FreeBSD has superior network stack vs Linux.
4. pf is superior to any Linux-based firewalls.
5. The only "upgrade" I'm seeing here is the applications, but for server-use is mostly a non-issue as I can setup a vanilla jail with the same port. It is only an "upgrade" for people not experienced with FreeBSD or POSIX systems in general as a one-click-deploy solution.
6. Point #3 above (as far as I've noticed on my system) seems to come at a hefty performance overhead since k3s process is constantly hovering at 8-10% even when it's literally doing nothing.

SCALE seems to have brought in a great many users, quite a few because of the applications side. (Where as Core's available jail apps and plugins were much less than ones available with SCALE.) Of course, we still had / have a few SCALE users that expected every single feature to be both completed and bug free.

This is just the side effect of it being based on Linux. I daily drive both Debian and FreeBSD systems and frequent both forums. What I've noticed is, most FreeBSD users tend to be at least semi-experienced/knowledgeable and very comfortable with the CLI, whereas a good chunk of Linux users tend to be first-time fresh Windows transplants. It just tends to gravitate to that kind of user due to it having better gamer PC hardware support and having a lot of distros catered to making the UI as seamlessly as possible out of the box for a new Windows transplant user.

Anyone else notice the "flood" of new SCALE users that are asking for help?

For sure.

Do you think it is good to have a ton of new SCALE users, even if they have to ask for help?

I think having an increased user base is overall always a good thing. That's really how Linux got to where it is today. I long for the day that I can use FreeBSD as a daily driver and get rid of Linux entirely to run some software that isn't available under FreeBSD or to have to use the Linux compatibility layer.

 

[Arwen]

From ChrisRJ's list;

• ZFS pool & datasets are different enough, that unless you know the basics, you can make some serious mistakes. Some mistakes will require a full backup and restore to remedy. See this helpful guide:
  
  

  ZFS Storage Pool Layout

  This resource was originally created by user: @Davvo on the TrueNAS Community Forums Archive. https://www.truenas.com/community/resources/zfs-storage-pool-layout.201/download [1] This amazing document, created by iXsystems in February 2022 as a “White Paper”, cleanly explains how to qualify...

  www.truenas.com
• YouTube is generally entertainment, so take any ZFS or TrueNAS videos with a lump of salt. But, running a production NAS server is generally not entertainment, even if it is for your home.
• Why did you select SCALE & ZFS? Just because others show it is easy, does not mean it is easy for you, and appropriate for you. Here is a helpful introduction to ZFS:
  

  Introduction to ZFS

  This is a short introduction to ZFS. It is really only intended to convey the bare minimum knowledge needed to start diving into ZFS and is in no way meant to cut Michael W. Lucas' and Allan Jude's book income. It is a bit of a spiritual...

  www.truenas.com

Good points, I think adding this:

• SCALE is not an upgrade from Core, they are similar products with slightly different feature sets
• Core will likely be a bit more stable than SCALE, due to difference in kernel development procedures. Further, Core has many years of work to make it stable, reliable & fast, where SCALE is spring chicken by comparison.

Not sure how I would word the other items you mentioned.

 

[Whattteva]

• YouTube is generally entertainment, so take any ZFS or TrueNAS videos with a lump of salt. But, running a production NAS server is generally not entertainment, even if it is for your home.

Agreed 100%. I tend to avoid YouTube videos specifically for this reason and prefer text-based resources. Really because I think YouTube videos tend to gravitate to maximize making money, so they intentionally make them that way. That's not to say text-based resources aren't prone to that, but in general, it tends to be less click-baity and a bit more informative over sensational like.... "Cheap under $500 home NAS and Plex with TrueNAS!"

 

[mistermanko]

But is this fundamentally different from CORE?

Yes, there is no alternative to Apps on SCALE, like on CORE with iocage jails. You can't fuck up the host system by fiddling with packages on CORE, if you do it in a jail which is very simple to set-up - even for newbies. There is nothing like it on SCALE. Unless you want to jump through the hoops for a stable VM, you can't do it like this on SCALE. And with cobia there is the last bit of a simpler approach (docker) taken out.
You either have the choice to stick with a big catalogue of working Truecharts Apps and be tied there Discord or....nothing else.
For the moment there is this: https://github.com/Jip-Hop/jailmaker
Let's see how long it lasts.

 

[Arwen]

I've added the resource, reply to it's discussion thread with suggestions, improvements, (and corrections :-(.

Welcome to TrueNAS SCALE - Beginners Intro

Since mid 2021 we have had many new users of TrueNAS wanting to try SCALE. Here are some things that are helpful for new TrueNAS SCALE users to know; SCALE is a specialized & targeted OS based on a Linux distro. However, SCALE is NOT a Linux distro, and updates are by full replacement with a...

www.truenas.com

It created the discussion in the old FreeNAS sub-forums. I have already requested it be changed to the TrueNAS SCALE main forum.

 

[Yorick]

And with cobia there is the last bit of a simpler approach (docker) taken out.

Found it: https://ixsystems.atlassian.net/plu...riginPath=/browse/NAS-109044#issue/NAS-109044

This may actually make docker and docker-compose simpler, if one doesn’t mind a startup script that apt installs docker-ce and the compose plugin. Tbd.

 

[Yorick]

But really, what are the options here?

It’s definitely not zero-effort and: A large enough TrueCharts user base that prefers this forum can support TrueCharts on this forum. It’s not like Discord is mandated; it’s “just” where the people currently volunteering their time prefer to offer support.

 

[Yorick]

SCALE is not a Linux distro, so installing random packages on the base OS will likely lead to frustration after they disappear during an update

Suggest for accuracy: “SCALE is a specialized, locked-down Linux distribution, so installing additional packages on the base OS will lead to frustration as they will disappear during an update”

 

[truecharts]

Given that they've chosen to set up their own support channels, I think what they do is the least-bad choice. I'd rather they did differently; I don't like Discord and its chat-room nature for a support channel (though I should mention that the couple of times I've sought help there, I got it very quickly). But it is (and IMO ought to be) their choice where and how to support their work.

Some input on this:
We are looking into other support channels outside of discord, because we 100% agree that the vendor lock-in and dependency on Discord is not a good thing.

Why we point to our own support channels is easily explained:
We've about 10+ people in our support staff and a standardised procedure for it:
- User adds a ticket with description
- We get a headsup for the new ticket
- User gets an automatic list of information we require in the ticket to be able to answer it
- User gives info (or not and the ticket gets nuked)
- We give solution.

We're talking about 4-12 tickets per day, it's quite a lot for a volunteer(!) team to handle to be honest.
Adding the load of also manually needing to join forum/reddit/discord discussions elsewhere, without any streamlining, is not reasonable to expect from our volunteers. We also don't want to depend on the support of other platforms reddit/forums etc, for something that is vital for our project (hence our dislike to Discord as well)

To be clear: There is absolutely zero gain for us, besides practicalities. We 100% do *not* abuse the fact people need support, to grow our own community.

You either have the choice to stick with a big catalogue of working Truecharts Apps and be tied there Discord or....nothing else.

You're absolutely free to discuss our Apps elsewhere, just don't expect advice from experienced users or staff.
Or **any** support when said advice fubars your data. That's all.

It’s definitely not zero-effort and: A large enough TrueCharts user base that prefers this forum can support TrueCharts on this forum. It’s not like Discord is mandated; it’s “just” where the people currently volunteering their time prefer to offer support.

The procedures and advisories are mostly made by the core-team, support staff members are free to give advice anywhere they like.
In practice it just happens that most of our support staff prefer the streamlined procedures on our discord...

 

[truecharts]

• Questions for TrueChart should go to their Discord channel

We kinda require users to do basic research on the website before dropping in to ask questions, so it might be wise to also link to the website. Which has a TON of information, including guides, already covered....

 

[Arwen]

Improvements to the "Welcome to TrueNAS SCALE - Beginners Guide" should be in it's discussion thread...

Suggest for accuracy: “SCALE is a specialized, locked-down Linux distribution, so installing additional packages on the base OS will lead to frustration as they will disappear during an update”

That is not quite perfect, in my opinion, so I went with "SCALE is a specialized & targeted OS based on Linux, so installing additional packages on the base OS will likely lead to frustration as they will disappear during an update".

We kinda require users to do basic research on the website before dropping in to ask questions, so it might be wise to also link to the website. Which has a TON of information, including guides, already covered....

But, I have added some details on TrueCharts as below. As I said, it was never perfect, just waiting for more information.

Users with questions or in need of support for TrueCharts should perform basic research on the website;

TrueCharts

Your Source for Awesome Helm-Charts!

truecharts.org

Then if needed, ask questions in the Discord channel;

Join the TrueCharts Discord Server!

Check out the TrueCharts community on Discord – hang out with 10894 other members and enjoy free voice and text chat.

discord.com

 

[Dice]

I think it would be tremendously helpful to accumulate a selection of links to older information/basics (written for CORE for example), that are still valid to SCALE users. Most importantly, explain what about them is still valid, and what parts that have evolved to the point where the information is no longer true/relevant to the SCALE context.

It is really tough for newcomers to evaluate what parts of a "fundamental guide" is valid to SCALE that has aged 5-7 years on the forum...
People can mostly read. Finding out what is worth reading and relevant is far more cumbersome.

 

[Arwen]

If you have direct suggestions, please, add them to the discussion thread of the Resource. I've already added some links in the Reource.

We may want a separate section, below the main section, with links to Resources and Sticky forum threads. Then with a line or 2 about what is different on SCALE compared to Core. But, I need some hints or details.

When I created the resource, I was aware that I may not be the most knowledgeable to write it. Except no one else was stepping forward. (That is not a criticism or complaint, just a fact.)

 

[Dice]

If you have direct suggestions, please, add them to the discussion thread of the Resource.

I'll keep that in mind.

I've no suggestion at this moment, partly because I've not toyed enough with SCALE to see what would make sense. ie, what previously needed some attention that now ships somewhat decently configured (SMART scheduling as an example...). Or what kind of possibilities that were neat to add to CORE, but may or may not be possible/sensible to add to SCALE.