NBASE-T Technology: 2.5 and 5.0 GbE over Cat5e!

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TXAG26

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Anyone heard about NBASE-T? Evidently it allows 2.5 GbE and 5.0 GbE over regular Cat5e. This should have come out 10 years ago before 10/40Gb and just maybe, it would have taken off like 1GbE.

I sure hope this catches on as it should lead to less expensive switches as most homes & office buildings are wired with Cat5e or Cat6 now. I would be happy with even just 2.5 GbE over existing wiring.

Intel seems to have just released one of the first adapters to support it: Intel X550-T1 & X500-T2.

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us...converged-network-adapters/ethernet-x550.html

http://ark.intel.com/products/88209/Intel-Ethernet-Converged-Network-Adapter-X550-T2
 

cyberjock

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Yeah, I saw that a few weeks ago. It will be interesting, assuming the spec actually makes it to the world. Right now the spec hasn't been approved (afaik), so no devices officially use or support it... yet. Based on how long it took wifi to get standardized, I'm figured you won't see the spec finalized until late 2017 or 2018, which means you may not see stuff that you'd actually want to use that is reliable until 2019 or later. Of course, by then 10Gb will own so much of the market and be so inexpensive that most everyone will have it (except those with 5e in their walls and don't want to upgrade).
 

Ericloewe

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The spec is supposed to be approved around summer, so it'll be a while before there's proper support.

Intel has been kinda-sorta preparing for this for a while, since the Avoton integrated NICs are apparently capable of 2.5Gb/s.
 

cyberjock

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The spec is supposed to be approved around summer, so it'll be a while before there's proper support.

Intel has been kinda-sorta preparing for this for a while, since the Avoton integrated NICs are apparently capable of 2.5Gb/s.

Yeah, just like the pre-802.11n stuff that ultimately wasn't compatible with 802.11n the spec. Yeah, I'll believe it when the spec is finalized and Intel announces that they officially support it.

You'll also be waiting for support for switches as well, and who knows if any switches out there right now can/will support the new spec with something like a firmware update. So you may have to buy new switches and such.
 

jgreco

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So you may have to buy new switches and such.

That's a solid will, not may, unless you've already got 10G gear that can be firmware updated. The NBASE-T stuff is a solution looking to a problem we had ten years ago.
 

Ericloewe

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Yeah, just like the pre-802.11n stuff that ultimately wasn't compatible with 802.11n the spec. Yeah, I'll believe it when the spec is finalized and Intel announces that they officially support it.
My feelings exactly.

You'll also be waiting for support for switches as well, and who knows if any switches out there right now can/will support the new spec with something like a firmware update. So you may have to buy new switches and such.
Since this stuff has most of the complexity of 10GBase-T (minus the analog stuff, but I don't imagine there's much supply of not-quite-10GbE but better than 1GbE magnetics), I imagine that the vast majority of products supporting it will support 10GbE anyway. I guess it's positive if it slightly increases the target market for 10GbE devices for people really stuck with Cat. 5e.
 

Arwen

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Some Cisco switches are starting to support NBase-T speeds, (2.5Gb/s & 5Gb/s). Plus, you can buy
PCIe cards today that do, 100Mb/s, 1Gb/s, 2.5Gb/s, 5Gb/s and 10Gb/s.

Here is a dicussion I started a while back;

https://forums.freenas.org/index.php?threads/new-nbase-t-cards-out.41439/

A note: When the Avoton integrated NICs do 2.5Gb/s, it's without backward compatibility. It's a screwy
thing as I understand it. Basically the Avoton was made such that it could have it's 4 NICs do 2.5Gb/s
on a backplane. Further, it does not appear, (and I could be wrong), that the Avoton was designed
with the NBase-T standard in mind. So normal mode is 10Mb/s, 100Mb/s and 1Gbp/s.
 

c32767a

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From what I can see, the primary driver for this is actually plumbing to 802.11AC Wave2 and future APs.
With wave 2, there's finally a real chance a 1Gb/s link to the AP will be insufficient. Plus, Cisco and a few others are offering APs now that can simultaneously run 2 independent 5 Ghz radios in the same AP to give better density in a physical space without lots of hardware. Ans, they need something that can be deployed without re-running cable..

While I don't see 10GbaseT ever making it huge in the datacenter, with 10/25/50/100 QSFP 28 switches and cards coming on the market, I think you're going to have a lot more mainstream hardware options if you stick with 1G or 10G. Particularly since, as others have said, the NBase standards aren't ratified yet. Only Cisco has announced prestandard switches so far.

It will be interesting to see how the prosumer market adopts NBase and/or continues to adopt 10GbaseT. So far it seems like most of the NBase switch support is derated 10G chips, with a custom PHY that does 10,1 and 100m plus the NBase speeds.
 

jgreco

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From what I can see, the primary driver for this is actually plumbing to 802.11AC Wave2 and future APs.
With wave 2, there's finally a real chance a 1Gb/s link to the AP will be insufficient. Plus, Cisco and a few others are offering APs now that can simultaneously run 2 independent 5 Ghz radios in the same AP to give better density in a physical space without lots of hardware. Ans, they need something that can be deployed without re-running cable..

Most of the guys who do this professionally understands that a modest jump in speed is only saving you for one round of upgrades at best. The compelling thing of course is POE, if it wasn't for the issue of how to power the little bastards, running fiber for AP's would be the logical reasonably future-proof fix. We're currently capped at 1

While I don't see 10GbaseT ever making it huge in the datacenter, with 10/25/50/100 QSFP 28 switches and cards coming on the market, I think you're going to have a lot more mainstream hardware options if you stick with 1G or 10G. Particularly since, as others have said, the NBase standards aren't ratified yet. Only Cisco has announced prestandard switches so far.

It will be interesting to see how the prosumer market adopts NBase and/or continues to adopt 10GbaseT. So far it seems like most of the NBase switch support is derated 10G chips, with a custom PHY that does 10,1 and 100m plus the NBase speeds.

We've already seen this. It isn't a big hit. Netgear bet big on 10Gbase-T back in 2013 with their "low cost" options, and as far as I can tell, response was tepid.

This gets back to a meta-issue, which is, how much bandwidth is actually "sufficient". I've talked before how we rolled through 10Mbps (standard in 1993), 100Mbps (1996), 1Gbps (1999), and then 10Gbps (2002) ethernet on a fairly consistent 3 year cycle, with commodity hardware availability trailing by a few years in each case, EXCEPT for 10Gbps. What seems to have happened is we finally got to a networking speed that was "fast enough" for most purposes, because if that wasn't true, then we'd have seen 10Gbase-T get mainstream years ago.

We don't seem to have a big call to have desktops connected at >1Gbps. It logically follows that there isn't a big call to have laptops do so either, so the primary difference between those situations from a cabling point of view seems to be that an AP is serving multiple clients. Which is what you said in the first place. But really, wifi is typically serving a large number of lowish bandwidth devices, and usually with that you just don't have a good chance of peaking out a wireless network. That might be different if you've got one high-performance client that has an AP to itself, but that brings us back to the "desktops are fine at 1Gbps" issue.

I suspect that the average WLAN is going to find that their client-heavy Wave 2 networks aren't going to find them backhauling > 1Gbps on a constant basis, and that even high-performance clients on a 1:1 basis are quite possibly okay at 1Gbps.

This opinion seems to be shared by others: http://www.revolutionwifi.net/revolutionwifi/?offset=1422633299171

Since the big driver here is POE, and there isn't yet a 10Gbase-T POE standard, yes, that's trouble. But it is also worth noting that the whole Nbase thing itself might quite possibly turn into another wireless-N debacle:

http://blog.planetechusa.com/2014/12/what-the-nbase-t-and-mgbase-t-alliances-dont-want-you-to-know/

Even shares the letter N.

I think the smart money is on avoiding Nbase unless there's a compelling need and you feel completely comfortable with trashing the stuff in a year or two. There will inevitably be some folks for whom the product fills an actual need, but most of what I'm seeing is vague fearmongering about how 1Gbps "isn't enough" in what appears to be a blatant attempt to upsell existing sites new technology that they don't actually need and won't actually benefit from.
 

Ericloewe

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We've already seen this. It isn't a big hit. Netgear bet big on 10Gbase-T back in 2013 with their "low cost" options, and as far as I can tell, response was tepid.
From my point of view, they missed a decent market somewhat.

People really looking for 10GbE aren't going to be bothered too much about the pricing on the higher-end switches. I feel that a better market than "8x 10GBaseT ports" is something like "20x 1GBaseT plus 2-4x 10GBaseT". D-Link has something close, at reasonable prices, but they're using SFP+ only (and they're said to be louder than ideal, which is a problem in a significant portion of the "few 10GBaseT port" market).

As for the endpoints, new server boards with integrated 10GbE seem to already be trending towards 10GBaseT, with the new Intel "low-cost" controllers. Intel's marketing also seems to be oriented towards copper for new products, as far as I've seen...
 

jgreco

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From my point of view, they missed a decent market somewhat.

Well, three years later, it doesn't seem like that's actually true. I'm sure they *thought* they were going to pick up that market. Turns out there wasn't a market.

People really looking for 10GbE aren't going to be bothered too much about the pricing on the higher-end switches.

I think that misstates the issue. The people who were really looking for 10GbE have been doing it for 14 years, and, indeed, weren't too bothered about pricing.

The question was never about 10GbE adoption in the higher end market, which is currently chewing its way through 100Gbps. I've got 40Gbps ports available here but the price per port is not that attractive. A nice 40G switch like the Mellanox SX1012 is still running around $500 per port. That's not "let's do every server with 40G" attractive.

What we need isn't availability. It is the arrival of commodity kit. Historically, this happened within a few years of the introduction of 10/100/1000Mbps technologies. I mean, today, I can go out and get a fairly competent 1G 8 port switch for $80, or $10/port, does vlans, LACP, web managed, etc. We're now at the "1G-has-been-around-so-long-its-dirt-cheap" level.

We're not seeing that with 10G. Price per port is still way high, in excess of $100/port. You have to go used on eBay to get anything resembling affordable.

I feel that a better market than "8x 10GBaseT ports" is something like "20x 1GBaseT plus 2-4x 10GBaseT".

That's called an aggregation or edge switch. It's a step in the right direction, but only barely. It is essentially saying that 10G is only useful for the server or as an uplink. That's a useless market since it's already established that you can get 10G uplink for many years now. What we need is for the remainder of those 1G ports to be 10G.

D-Link has something close, at reasonable prices, but they're using SFP+ only (and they're said to be louder than ideal, which is a problem in a significant portion of the "few 10GBaseT port" market).

I can show you a dozen products like that. Worthless.

As for the endpoints, new server boards with integrated 10GbE seem to already be trending towards 10GBaseT, with the new Intel "low-cost" controllers. Intel's marketing also seems to be oriented towards copper for new products, as far as I've seen...

Yes, that'll help drive things, hopefully, though if you look carefully at the way Supermicro rolled Xeon D offerings, their first round was mostly 10Gbase-T, and the later rounds have gone back to mostly SFP+.

What I was really hoping for back in 2013 was that someone like Apple would have put out a 10Gbase-T port on their trashcan Mac Pro.
 

c32767a

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I suspect that the average WLAN is going to find that their client-heavy Wave 2 networks aren't going to find them backhauling > 1Gbps on a constant basis, and that even high-performance clients on a 1:1 basis are quite possibly okay at 1Gbps.

This opinion seems to be shared by others: http://www.revolutionwifi.net/revolutionwifi/?offset=1422633299171

I think one of the places where NBase will be relevant is with new APs like the Cisc0 3800 that allow flexible radio assignment. Running 2 5Ghz radios on the same AP for coverage density will definitely test a 1G uplink.
While I agree with the thoughts at that blog, In my experience, we see a much higher AC client density on our networks. I'm not sure the assumptions he used in 2015 are as valid now. They certainly underestimate our typical client population.
I'll be honest and say if we can get 5Gb/s over our cat5e links. That'll keep us happy for quite a while. Probably long enough that some egghead will figure out how to get 10Gb/s on Cat5e so we can put off recabling again for another 5 years.. :)

And POE.. yeah. I can't wait to see how they get 60 Watts through the wire.. That'll be impressive.
 

jgreco

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I think one of the places where NBase will be relevant is with new APs like the Cisc0 3800 that allow flexible radio assignment. Running 2 5Ghz radios on the same AP for coverage density will definitely test a 1G uplink.

Yeah, it could get a little tight. More radios is actually the only thing I see that makes me think this could actually be a true issue in the real world.

While I agree with the thoughts at that blog, In my experience, we see a much higher AC client density on our networks. I'm not sure the assumptions he used in 2015 are as valid now. They certainly underestimate our typical client population.

However, client density usually translates to more contention which translates to substantially lower performance on a radio.

I'll be honest and say if we can get 5Gb/s over our cat5e links. That'll keep us happy for quite a while. Probably long enough that some egghead will figure out how to get 10Gb/s on Cat5e so we can put off recabling again for another 5 years.. :)

That's actually what THIS solution is, if you look at it.

And POE.. yeah. I can't wait to see how they get 60 Watts through the wire.. That'll be impressive.

Yes, POE is always fun.
 
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